Those two games are gone forever - let's deal with it!

The member schools of the NYSPHAA  just finished their second 18-game regular season.  Next year, those schools will be again limited to just 18 games - down two games from seasons past, down six games from what Monsignor Martin schools can schedule, and significantly down from what most states in this country allow. 

 

I've heard it discussed, read articles about it, and read ranting on blogs.  These last two  years, when the quality of basketball in WNY is questioned, (whether it's the players aren't as good anymore, we don't have the powerhouse teams we used to have, or there aren't enough marquee games) it always seems to come back to one thing - we have to get those two games back from the state.

 

I'm sorry, but those two games are gone and we're not getting them back.  It's a sad reality, but one that needs to be faced. I could sooner see the state taking more away, rather than restoring the basketball season to 20 games.   The biggest  impact of the restriction is felt in nonleague scheduling. 

 

With the exception of the charter schools, all public schools in Section VI are part of a league, and depending on which your team belongs to, league play gobbles up either 12 or 14 of the 18-game allowance.  In the Niagara Orleans league or the Yale Cup for example, teams play 14 league games.  League play began this year in January, but the season starts in the last week of November.  That leaves over a month of season, in which you're allowed to schedule four games.  One tournament played over two nights, and you're down to two games.  If you play in a tip-off tournament, you're left with two games to schedule over the course of 30 days.  That's unacceptable!  So let's stop accepting it.  If this is the fate we are dealt, it's time to work within it.

 

The only suggestion I've heard is teams face league opponents just once and rotate the home sight annually.  I have a solution that I think makes even more sense, and is the best compromise I've come up with to maintain the esablished leagues, while greatly improving the nonleague scheduling dilema.

 

I'll use the Yale Cup large schools (Yale Cup I) to illustrate this example.  Rather than all eight teams playing a home and home against each other, divide those large schools in half - by team strength, by location, etc. - however you want to divide them.  Say it's:

1. McKinley, Riverside, Hutch-Tech, & East

2. Bennett, Lafayette, South Park, Burgard

Teams from group one still play a home and home (six games), then group one plays each team from group two just once (four games).  Teams could even leave one game on their schedule "open" for a league showcase, which could also serve as a tiebreaker in some league races.  In this example, league games are reduced to 10 or 11 games, allowing seven or eight nonleagers.  That's four tournaments, one for every weekend in December.

 

The above formula is designed for leagues with eight teams, which include: Yale Cup I, Yale Cup II, ECIC I, NFL, and N-O.

 

Leagues with seven teams include: ECIC II, III, & IV, and all four CCAA divisions.  Those teams currently play six nonleague games and 12 league contests.  If you're okay with six nonleague game, then you're in good shape.  If you want more, here's what I've come up with:

 

- Move one team from CCAA I down to CCAA II and move a team from CCAA III down to CCAA IV.   Now CCAA I & III would have six teams (10 league games), while CCAA II & IV  would have eight teams and could follow the format above.

 

That leaves ECIC II, III, and IV all with seven teams.  If each league added one team, they'd all have eight teams and could also follow the eight-team league format outlined above.  But where do we come up with three teams to add?  Well, I can think of three independent charter schools off the top of my head: Oracle, Tapestry, and Maritime.  CSAT is a charter school and plays in the N-O.  It's not such a crazy concept.

 

 

I realize everything I wrote may sound complicated.  To me, it's logical and makes perfect sense. 

 

Is it a sensible solution to a situation that isn't going to get any better on its own or is it just a pipe dream?  For me, the answer depends on how badly the coaches want more nonleague games to schedule.

 

Call me crazy, call me brilliant, call me naive...just say something.  This is an issue that needs a productive discussion or there will never be any resolution - just a long December.  I want reason to believe maybe this year will be better than the last.

 

-centercourt

 

 

 

Comments

[StateChamps2003]

I call you BRILLIANT centercourt!

[TML1000]

This could be the best post you've ever done...the thought has crossed my mind before of sorts too, not in this much depth. Very nice.

Like in the NFL it would be easy to do by location...KW, KE, GI and NT in the "South" division and Falls, NW, Lew Port and Lockport in the "North" division. Hey, it would save on some bus costs too.

[guest]

You would have to break NFL up by school size a bit, say kw,nf,nt,lockport in one and nw,ke,gi,lp in other. Understand one thing NO CHANGE will happen as long as the old guys like Jim walker are in charge,they could care less about whats best for schools and kids only want less work for themselves. It is time for walker to step down for the betterment of the section

[guest]

TML,
i would agree that this is a very good post, however it would likely raise bus costs because the replacement games would likely be at farther locations than their geographic leagues. Especially in the nfl and yale cup. the problem is the administrations have no interest in fighting for athletics.

[Earl Schunk]

Three points here:

1. It would make no sense at all to go below 12 league games; the league is not only the most important thing (just like in college, where you get 18 league and 7 non league) it is also the determiner for sectional seeding. You want as big a pool of games as possible to make sure the seedings accurately reflect the team's performance during the season.
2. The Yale Cup is currently looking at going to 3 divisions and also to starting in December.
3. To suggest that the NFL and Yale Cup are not fighting this fight is just plain ignorant. This 18 game decision came as a result of downstate athletic directors who will not let the 20 game proposal even get to a vote. You don't ever hear of city schools cutting modified or other sports programs like they do in other districts.

To me it is nice to see some intriguing non league matchups early, have the league schedule start second week of December, and save the really important matchups for the sectionals

[Andrew Webster]

CC, whether people agree with everything or not, definitely the best post I've ever read on this site. Well done. My solution for CCAA (which of course is my specialty) is this:

There are 28 teams in CCAA.

Next year there will be 6 B teams, 12 C teams, and 10 D teams.

Let me first say that with a 18 game schedule I think 10-12 league games is the way to do it. I have no problem with 10 as you will see here. I know what Earl is saying, but 10 games is still a pretty good amount. Some teams such as mine, played in a league this year that was not overly competitive and that doesn't help teams get prepared for the playoffs. I would rather see us lose more games, but play better teams to be prepared for playoffs.

Anyhow:

CCAA B Division (10 league games)
-Olean
-Dunkirk
-Fredonia
-Southwestern
-Falconer
-Gowanda

CCAA C Division West (10 league games)
-Silver Creek
-Cassadaga Valley
-Frewsburg
-Maple Grove
-Westfield
-Chautauqua Lake

CCAA C Division East (10 league games)
-Alleghany-Limestone
-Salamanca
-Portville
-Randolph
-Cattaraugus-Little Valley
-Franklinville

CCAA D Division West (8 league games, but you could crossover against the other division twice)
-Panama
-Clymer
-Sherman
-Brocton
-Ripley

CCAA D Division East (8 league games, but can crossover)
-Pine Valley
-Forestville
-North Collins
-Ellicotville
-West Valley

I would love to see this happen, but I doubt it would. The best part for me is that your playing all teams in your class so your not going to have any power point discrepancies like we have now. Plus in most situations, the geographical considerations make sense as well.

[guest]

Earl,
sorry the comment i made was worded improperly. the Yale cup and NFl comment was in regards to not really being cheaper for busing. The administration comment was a blanket comment across all nys schools. and yes i agree it is a predominately a downstate issue, or even more so an issue with more rural schools downstate. my feeling is each school should get to decide how many they want to play upto 20. some schools in wny didnt even play 18 due to budget issues, notably JFK.

[McShea is God]

There is only 1 thing that needs 2 b done. Make Center Court the commisioner of HS basketball in WNY. I demand it b done right away.

Sal, since u were able 2 make Jayson Paige disappear, making this happen should b no problem.

Also Earl just make all 18 games count toward seeding points. As commisioner seeding points would just b abolished anyway. Let CC seed the teams as he sees fit. And 12 league games sucks who the hell wants 2 c Falls crush NT and K East twice each year. Play those lame teams once and then they can play more catholic teams, or Rochester, etc.

I also think Keith's power 10 is a bit gay. But he is still a God.

And 12 straight years 4 the Bills w no playoffs? With a salary cap where each team can spend the same amout of money? If they TRIED 2 do that on purpose it would b hard 2 do.

Finally CC is coming over 4 the Cuse UConn game Saturday. It is the 9p ESPN game. I will get pizza and wings and they won't suck. TML, Moran, Sal, Gill I expect everyone 2 come over.

[Earl Schunk]

I agree with that. There are some districts that are penny wise and pound foolish. What some districts have done is to devalue a sport like basketball so much that kids who are basketball players either transfer or lose out on college opportunities. If I had a child in such a district I would speak up at every board meeting until they added games.

[Earl Schunk]

Actually, Rochester counts all 18 games for seeding. The only problem I have with that is teams could "cherry-pick" against a weaker large school and it would defeat the purpose of matching two really good teams. I'd rather have a few (4-6) non-league games where I could challenge my squad without worrying about how it would affect a potential seeding and home game.

[centercourt]

Earl -

I'm glad you weighed in on this, since you've had the unique perspective of both coaching teams in a league, and coaching a charter school, where you had to fill all 18 games.

Some teams play 14 league games, others play 12. It's only a difference of the number of games you're dividing the total power points by. As you are a retired math teacher, I know that explanation wasn't even required. So if teams played 10 league games rather than 12, to me, it's the same difference as exists right now.

If this state had more games at its disposal, I'd be all for two league games against the six or seven teams in your league as it currently exists. League action is great and provides some of the best atmospheres you see all year.

[Lucky13]

Yale Cup and I think N-O (you would know) are the only leagues that still wait till January to start. The others are already starting in December and those teams already have their 18 game schedules pretty evenly spread out (as much as possible).

There are two threads here:
-If you're referring mainly to teams that have a lack of games in December which are the Yale and N-O teams, then the answer is having those leagues starting their games in Dec. also and spreading their games out.

-If the discussion is strictly about having more non-league games, then you have a great idea as others would be also.

There are plenty of quality games to go to in Dec. however starting with: Pastor-Cooper; Cataract Classic; Keenan Memorial; ECIC-MMA Challenge; early ECIC and NFL games which started in mid-Dec.(this season the NF-KW game was in Dec.); AQ was at Canisius; Joes played at OTC; and then all the Tip-Off and Holiday Tourneys (all having 1 or 2 good teams if not all great games to see.) Anybody could easily go to 2-3 games a week in Dec. if they wanted to just like Jan.

[centercourt]

Lucky13 -

The discussion is really about more nonleague games. The Yale Cup & N-O leagues made for great examples, the reason I used them. The Yale Cup always starts after January, while it was the first time the N-O did that.

I have no trouble finding games to attend in December - saw 38 during that month this year. But I don't think the Pastor-Cooper Showcase should have been forced to change its format just to get teams. I know from conversations with those who coordinated the other events you refer to in December, it was more difficult than ever to field teams. Teams have cancelled annual tournaments they have hosted for years, because of losing a pair of nonleagers. It would have been great to see Falls play another non-NFL team from WNY besides Timon this year.

If every league used the above format and a coach still wanted to play every team in his league twice, he could schedule that way. However, my sense is many would be happy with the wiggle room to bring in teams that present the challenges for their team they are looking for. Some coaches have a sub-par team and want like opponents to try and build confidence. Other coaches want the most grueling schedule possible. I just want to see the best of both worlds come together.

[Lucky13]

Well, as I said then, yours is a great idea.

It's good to see Coach Schunk say the Yale Cup is looking to start in Dec. That only makes sense.

Why would the N-O seemingly go backward (imo) and start games in Jan. this season if they started them earlier before, leaving it's teams with a long stretch with no games in Dec.

I'm not surprised that you have no trouble finding games in Dec. but I was puzzled then by your using the phrase at the end of your post "just a long Dec." seeming to imply that there was a lack of games. That's why I mentioned the games.

[Lucky13]

Oh, so I'll say that CC is 10% naive, 40% crazy and 60% brilliant.............yes, I know,.... but he gives 110% :)

[centercourt]

The last line of the post above are lyrics from the Counting Crows song "Long December".

I like the breakdown by percentage, although I'm probably a little more naive than 10%.

[Lucky13]

Ha Ha ... love it. I didn't know that one at all. I'm much older than you. Amazing how one person can put something down referring to one thing and somebody else take it as something else.

[Hoopsboy]

N-O went to a January start to avoid a long layoff before sectional play. It's a lot easier to motivate a team to practice for 6-8 straight days in the beginning of the season than it is at the end. You could try to schedule a non-leaguer between league play and sectionals, but the options are limited. Even when you can, it doesn't always work out like you hope.

Another problem with cutting league games is that the coaches don't make the decisions, the ADs do. Cutting games would mean more work for them, since they would have to get creative in scheduling, and most ADs don't like the thought of more work.

One point I agree with Earl on -- you don't want to cheapen the league championships, which should be every team's first goal. Only playing a team once could mean a team wins the league based on home court advantage in a given year, and that wouldn't be right.

I hope the state gives the 2 extra games back in the near future. Our section voted against extending the 18-game limit, and I'm sure they'll continue to fight it. It's not right that two downstate sections are able to dictate to the rest of the state. If they want to play a limited schedule, for whatever reason, they can, but the rest of the state should be allowed to play 20.

[Lucky13]

Why would having a couple of league games in Dec. necessarily mean that the league season would end sooner? The games would just be spread out a little more. What am I missing?

[Earl Schunk]

CC...

My point was pretty much in any conference the greatest amount of games played are league games. 10 out of 18 is not a large enough sample. You missed the mathematics part of my argument. The larger the number of games, the larger the sample size. It would be like taking a guard who averages 12 a game and using his 2 best consecutive games to describe him (he averaged 26 over a 2 game period). I just prefer more games because it makes the math better; also, using all the games including non-league leaves open the fact that a C school could schedule a South Park, for example (an A school that went 0-15). That would skew the resulting rankings. Even though a non league win over a team like OTC (a C school) would be way more impressive, the win over South Park would be 2 extra points.

More non league matchups are perhaps better for the fans; I doubt many coaches would like having to schedule 40% of their games every year. Plus, what's to say that some districts drop even MORE games, because they are not league required?

[WT716]

CC shoot me an email [email protected]. Have a question for you.

[Use Ya Left]

And then of course there's AAU. Many past threads would include comments on how much more important AAU is than high school regular season.

I wonder if AAU plays into a belief on the part of officials in NYS scholastic sports that kids already have plenty of opportunities to play outside of the school season ... hence there's no reason to enhance the school season.

In any case, now more than ever WNY could use a reasonable number of high-level, consistent AAU programs whose agenda revolves solely around making the talent in the area better.

[centercourt]

The concept of counting all 18 games for power points like Section V does was never mentioned by me. I agree that too many schools could take advantage of it (although they would get torched in a forum like this for doing that). And more games might make the math better, but dividing by 10 would make it easier - no calculator required.

[McShea is God]

Well look at my post from a couple days ago I said W North would beat K West and that M Grove would beat I Prep even though most thought they would lose. Most other top seeds won. Depew upset Dunkirk in OT bad break 4 Dunkirk w that game not at home despite being the higher seed.

Buff State should b fun. We shall c if Stan can lead EA 2 the big upset Tuesday night. AA should b great and C2 as well.

[Roundman]

Use your left it looks like 716 will be an up and coming aau team playing big tournements new coach top players in wny should spell success for our players

[honesty]

I honestly think that mckinley is better than both canisius, and joe's. Joe's won by a point and that was their first game and canisius got away by free throws.

[crusaders # 1]

CHS up 7 after three. CHS had free throws at the end because McK was desperate and was fouling to catch up and of course as championship teams do CHS made all FT's down the stretch. Hart thrives on the chaos that McK lives by that is why he went for 30! Name the place and CHS would be happy to play again.

Canisius « 16-18-20-22— 76
McKinley 15-10-22-18— 65 F

[honesty]

They wouldn't play McKinley @ McKinley they just don't loose at home.